Rules Questions and Comments

[Fatebringer]

Well, someone should have started this thread a long time ago , I'll start.

First Comment, officially bringing up that I would like to see something more from the 72 RP cost of a Recharge Station

Recharge Station Post

In addition, I have a question regarding designs that our factions have access to. If you have the tech, and the list states you can make it, do you have to wait for an R&D roll to try and get it? Or can you pay to develope the unit?

I'm thinking about getting the RasDom's Assault Infantry to trade to the Marian Hegemony in the RP they started. Mostly just to prove it's viability, but it would have been a hard call to use my limited 10 slots at the new jump on infantry.

[Dave Baughman]

One idea I always liked for 'fixing' the RS hex improvement was to just change its MP generation to match a similarly-priced mobile unit. So... make it +12 (12x6=72) MP instead of +5. Maybe even make it +15 or if you want to really go out there +20 to make it competitive relative to WarShip construction.

[Daemonknight]

but if it's just the same as a warship, why not build the warship and gain a combat unit and the MPs? In my mind, it has to offer something more than just it's RP value. I'd say +40, and/or the increase to a unit's maximum hexes moved(maximum 2 per turn), to make it a truly useful HI. Then it would allow for rapid repdeployment of forces, which is the point of a RS in the first place- rapidly recharge the jump drives of jumpships on critical missions.

[Cannonshop]

I'd favour a multiplier instead of an additive-the more RS you have, the bigger the multiplier-that would scale with the cost, at least-

For example:
1 RS= (MP*1.25)
2 RS=(MP*1.50)
3 RS=(MP*1.75)
4 RS=(MP*2)
5 RS=(MP*2.25)

And so on.  A RS may give you 1 RP of income, but it costs 72 RP to build, and you can get the same income boost with another shipyard, where you can generate units that boost your faction's MP AND can engage in combat.

5 MP isn't that big a deal-seriously, it isn't, and RS don't help you cut down on the costs of specialized movements like Command Circuits by any appreciable amount.

[Dave Baughman]

Interesting idea. Something like this would be easy to automate on the spreadsheet and actually depending on how its implemented it could be given a deeper planning aspect similar to how we were looking possibly going with the commo rules before the reboot.

Properly balanced to ensure it doesn't favor either large or small factions too much, this mechanic could make things really interesting.

I'd favour a multiplier instead of an additive-the more RS you have, the bigger the multiplier-that would scale with the cost, at least-

For example:
1 RS= (MP*1.25)
2 RS=(MP*1.50)
3 RS=(MP*1.75)
4 RS=(MP*2)
5 RS=(MP*2.25)

And so on.  A RS may give you 1 RP of income, but it costs 72 RP to build, and you can get the same income boost with another shipyard, where you can generate units that boost your faction's MP AND can engage in combat.

5 MP isn't that big a deal-seriously, it isn't, and RS don't help you cut down on the costs of specialized movements like Command Circuits by any appreciable amount.

[Cannonshop]

Interesting idea. Something like this would be easy to automate on the spreadsheet and actually depending on how its implemented it could be given a deeper planning aspect similar to how we were looking possibly going with the commo rules before the reboot.

Properly balanced to ensure it doesn't favor either large or small factions too much, this mechanic could make things really interesting.

I'd favour a multiplier instead of an additive-the more RS you have, the bigger the multiplier-that would scale with the cost, at least-

For example:
1 RS= (MP*1.25)
2 RS=(MP*1.50)
3 RS=(MP*1.75)
4 RS=(MP*2)
5 RS=(MP*2.25)

And so on.  A RS may give you 1 RP of income, but it costs 72 RP to build, and you can get the same income boost with another shipyard, where you can generate units that boost your faction's MP AND can engage in combat.

5 MP isn't that big a deal-seriously, it isn't, and RS don't help you cut down on the costs of specialized movements like Command Circuits by any appreciable amount.

Okay, so how do we balance it?  (this is all just speculation at the moment, my ideas rarely get any traction...)

I have a couple of ideas on how to do the balancing act:

1. the MP multiplier bonus only applies to the cyclical pool-that is, it multiplies the cyclic pool, but not the Permanent pool.  This makes RS hexes good targets for hamstringing a large, but navy-poor opponent (like many of the Great Houses).

2. Cap the bonus multiplier, and anything over, say, 5 RS just generates RP.  This gives a small 'buffer' in case you lose one (esp. if you go with suggestion 1), while still making it make sense to keep building them (redundancy, see?), or, cap the multiplier at *2, and anything over that reduces the cost of a Command Circuit by a set amount per station.

It's tough to balance between small and large factions, since the additive nature of everything else (Resource generation, MP's, etc) favours bigger over smaller.  One thing about adopting a multiplier is that it helps smaller factions proportionally to helping larger factions. In the deciding process between, say, building a Mjolnir and building an RS, under the current system it makes more sense to build the Mjolly, even if it's a budget-buster for two or three turns, because it provides MORE MP (by quite a lot), AND provides combat capacity (raw FP's).  Making an RS economically viable (or potentially MORE viable) as an investment for a faction could be used to help limit the need for "warship races"-that is, situations where the only way a faction can achieve its strategic objectives is to build/buy more warships for the MP bonuses they generate.

[Dave Baughman]

I agree that it should definitely only impact cyclical pool. Your second point was sort of what I had in mind as my first knee-jerk reaction as well. Its too early in the morning (need to get to bed) where I live for me to crunch heavy math but I'm thinking that I would want a couple of different control mechanisms that would interlock to provide the actual bonus.

1) The multiplier itself would be curved with diminishing returns for people who just crank out tons and tons of RSes.
2) There would be a ceiling on the returns equal to X * # of stations to not only balance the price of the improvement relative to overall faction MP but also to ensure that small factions got a larger gain on the initial investment, while big factions end up benefitting more from larger-scale deployment. This might even be a complex mathematical formula based on the faction's cyclical MP pool creating an inverse relationship between faction cyclical MP and up-front benefit.
3) I'm almost tempted to say that for the big factions placement would be a much bigger factor, perhaps leveraging point 2 with a requirement for there to be a certain distance between RSes to gain the full benefit in for larger RS networks.

Of course, this is all predicated on keeping MP at all as a game mechanic. There's a part of me who really wishes we could dump MP altogether and instead go with 'real transport.' I was moving this way in '62 but never got around to finishing the rules. If you're not riding that crazy train though, I like the idea of a more "nuanced" RS mechanic.

[Deathrider6]

I like that multiplier idea for RS. I would definately have to consider capping it though even with it only affecting the Cyclical pool probably at a *3 multiplier. I figure that multiplier would work like the PF bonus to R and D. Just my .02 C-Bills.

[Daemonknight]

Putting in a minimum distance between RS actually hampers small factions, while not affecting big ones. If the min distance is say 3 hexes, the UIW could fit one or 2 RS, 3 if you count the SS; any of the Great Houses could built double digits of them because of all the internal space. I think the diminishing returns is a better method of control.




On a different subject, I want to bring my Terrorized theory here. It makes zero sense(to me) to have a terrorized hex lose all RP production, but still allow for that planet's construction capacity to function. Yeah its powerful, but only if used en masse, or against small nations. If someone terrorized Tharkad, I wouldn't much care- it doesn't generate a huge portion of my income, and I can still use all the MFs and SYs on world, so more than anything else, its an annoyance. But if I can't build units on it, now it becomes a strategic issue, where i have to get forces there, and I now have to draw them from someplace else to cover it- just incase.

[Fatebringer]

I like that multiplier idea for RS. I would definately have to consider capping it though even with it only affecting the Cyclical pool probably at a *3 multiplier. I figure that multiplier would work like the PF bonus to R and D. Just my .02 C-Bills.

I think that example chart is a bit extreme though. I mean, the suggestion I made was 2 or 3%, 5 at the Max. The reason why 25% per station seems so absurtd to me is that under the New Dominion MP Pool would jump to over 25K MP.

Plus, how does this compare to the R&D MP rewards?

[Fatebringer]

On a different subject, I want to bring my Terrorized theory here. It makes zero sense(to me) to have a terrorized hex lose all RP production, but still allow for that planet's construction capacity to function. Yeah its powerful, but only if used en masse, or against small nations. If someone terrorized Tharkad, I wouldn't much care- it doesn't generate a huge portion of my income, and I can still use all the MFs and SYs on world, so more than anything else, its an annoyance. But if I can't build units on it, now it becomes a strategic issue, where i have to get forces there, and I now have to draw them from someplace else to cover it- just incase.

I've been the victim of this a lot and have never had an issue with the Terror Rules, but perhaps it could be balanced out with 50% / 50%?

[Cannonshop]

I like that multiplier idea for RS. I would definately have to consider capping it though even with it only affecting the Cyclical pool probably at a *3 multiplier. I figure that multiplier would work like the PF bonus to R and D. Just my .02 C-Bills.

I think that example chart is a bit extreme though. I mean, the suggestion I made was 2 or 3%, 5 at the Max. The reason why 25% per station seems so absurtd to me is that under the New Dominion MP Pool would jump to over 25K MP.

Plus, how does this compare to the R&D MP rewards?

The example's just an example, I pulled those numbers out of my ass as being relatively easy to handle quantities (25% bites ARE relatively easy to handle as a multiplier), but the assumption is also that there will be a 'balancing factor' on the other end of the scale-a cap seems most likely for simplicity's sake, with facilities exceeding that cap serving mainly as redundancy in the event of an attack on the network.

The problem with front-loaidng the balancing factors, is that it keeps RS's as being very expensive things that don't give you much compared to other things that are less expensive (such as shipyards, which generate the same RP income, and can be used to build fleet assets, which will generally, as a rule, exceed 5 MP gain.)

As for the R&D awards, I've never seen one actually Happen, and they're something that can be adjusted up or down (or sideways) off-stage in a manner similar to the change that invalidated the "Efficient Production" bonus the Lyrans got before the rules were re-vamped.

IOW, I really don't think they matter that much, those results are incredibly rare.

[Fatebringer]

I know that "You found a Recharge Station" is on there somewhere

I think for an actual proposition and cap to RS, 5% per RS to a max of 50% increase could be feasible. Makes buying them useful, productive and not OP. I mean for 72 RP, I'd like to get something.

For the big realms, this gives them a good MP pool, for small realms, this still gives them a good source of income.

[Deathrider6]

  Rules discussion is a good thing I like the fact that this thread is getting some use. On another note it is the player's resposibility to ensure they have adequate knowledge of the rules. "I didn't know that," is not a valid excuse. I would hate to have to start using hamfisted methods of rules enforcement. You guys are all pretty good about the rules and I expect all of you to continue on that course.

[Dave Baughman]

Repostin' this here for the record in case there is future interest in implementing these rules (which were still in the "undeployed" stage in '62)

Chemical Weapons

Chemical Weapons tokens (#) are produced at PFs or Capital Worlds and may be attached to any "line item" unit on the orders sheet, including Special Operations Teams. CW tokens are spent during the Special Scenarios phase. Unattached CW tokens may be stockpiled or moved using the same rules previously presented for nuclear tokens.

CW uses:

When used by ground forces or aerospace units...
# may be spent to launch a CW attack, which inflicts 1d6 FP of damage. On a "1," it instead inflicts 1d6 FP on friendly forces. Scatter orders may be used to defend against CW attacks.
# may be spent to force a single hex improvement to go offline for 1d6 turns.
# may be used to deliberately attack the biosphere of a planet. Roll 2d6, on a "12" the planet is downgraded on level of development.

When used by marines...
# may be spent (by marines) to gain a +1 on simple resolution during boarding actions or combat on space stations.
# may also be spent to attack hex improvements as described above, if the hex improvement is on a space station or is a yardship.

when used by special forces...
# may be spent to add a +1 bonus to the following operations: attack special forces team, sabotage hex element, assassination
# may be spent to add a +2 bonus to the following operations: terrorism

Each token costs 5 RP to construct.

No faction begins with CW stockpiles; the Clans destroyed their stockpiles long ago, and the IS's stockpiles have been buried on "graveyard worlds" in the outer periphery. Recovering these ancient and partially decayed weapons is not cost-effective.

non-token CW activities: CW tokens represent the large-scale use of lethal chemical agents. CW tokens are not required for routine non-lethal chemical warfare such as using smoke or tear gas munitions in MegaMek.


Biological Weapons

Bioweapons have a wide variety of properties that are unlocked through R&D. Each faction must track the "recipes" they know and assign as specific recipe to every ß biological warfare token they own.

The properties of BW agents are described with three statistics: duration, spread, and strength.

• Duration is the maximum number of turns an agent will remain active once released. This can be a value from 1/6 (one operational round) to 6 (6 full rounds) or it may be X (stays active until cured).
• Spread is the bonus the agent receives each turn when determining if it spreads to adjacent hexes. This value can range from -3 to +3. The difficulty to spread to a directly adjacent hex is 8, or 10 to spread to a hex that is two hexes away. In addition to the BW agent's bonus, there is a +1 bonus to spread to a hex with an RCW, +2 to spread to a hex with a NCW, and +3 to spread to a hex with HWZs in it. There is a -1 penalty to spread to hexes with only member worlds. Spread can be counteracted with the Quarantine project (described below).
• Strength is the bonus the agent receives each turn on its damaging effects. This can be a value from -3 to +3.

BW Effects
Each turn, each hex that has obtained a BW watermark must roll to determine what impact the BW agent has:

1d6
1-2: All military units in the hex (except blockading naval units that have not been exposed) roll on the interdiction table(minus positive strength bonuses, or plus negative strength penalties) and suffer damage equal to the percentage indicated. The BW agent also attacks any special forces teams in the hex per the Attack Special Forces Team operation, using its strength as a modifier on the roll.
3-4: All hex elements in the hex are forced offline for 1d6(+/- strength) turns as if they had been attacked with a CW agent. Additionally, the hex is terrorized for the next three turns (+/- the strength modifier)
5-6: Roll for biosphere destruction on a randomly-determined planet in the hex (+/- strength) as per the CW operation. The BW agent also attempts to assassinate any VIPs in the hex, applying its strength modifier to the roll.

By default, a BW agent only attacks once per turn, but certain advanced recipes may be allowed multiple attacks.

BW R&D Path

Tier 1: Basic Projects

Quarantine
Base Cost: N/A
Uses: 1 PF or special

The quarantine project adds a -3 penalty to spread rolls emanating from the target hex. If a blockade is present in the system, the PF requirement is waived.

If any unit (including special forces teams and other clandestine movers) that has been exposed to the infected biosphere leaves the hex, the project fails and the -3 penalty is lost.

Identify Agent
Base Cost: 1
Uses: 1 PF

Samples of a BW agent are taken from an infected hex your faction owns to a PF for analysis. On an 8+, the recipe for the agent is revealed. A natural 2 is a critical failure, resulting in the release of the agent in the PF's hex.

Develop Cure
Base Cost: 10 RP
Uses: 1 PF

This operation adds the "Cure" feature to an existing recipe, and makes the cure known to the faction undertaking the project (see the "Add Feature" advanced project for full details on Cure). The difficulty of this project may be increased if the BW agent has the "Mutation" feature.

2d6
2 (natural)     Critical failure - BW agent released in the hex where the project PF is located
3-8              Failure
9-10             Add Cure/2-4 to the BW agent
11-12           Add Cure/2-3 to the BW agent
13+              Add Cure/2 to the BW agent


Launch BW Program
Base Cost: 25 RP
Uses: 1 PF

Succeeds on a 12+. Success unlocks the Tier 2 BW projects. A natural 2 is a critical failure, resulting in the release of an X/0/0 agent in the PF's hex. When successful, the faction that ran the project gains one recipe, which is always X/0/0 with no rules or features.


Tier 2: Intermediate Projects

Manufacture BW Token
Base Cost: 25 RP
Uses: 1 PF

Always succeeds. This project creates one ß token keyed to a specific recipe. ß tokens are carried, stockpile, and moved using the same rules as CW # tokens.


Create New Recipe
Base Cost: 5 RP
Uses: 1 PF

Creates a new BW recipe. Difficulty is equal to...

Base: 8+
Duration other than X: +1
Spread other than 0: +1
Strength other than 0: +1
Each Rule: +1
Each Feature: +1

Critically fails on a natural 2, releasing the agent in the target hex. Recipes may only be attempted if the faction has unlocked the desire statistics, rules, and features.


Enhanced Duration
Base Cost: 5 RP
Uses: 1 PF

Succeeds on a 10+, each success unlocks the next tier on the Duration track (factions start with X)

X -> 6 -> 5 -> 4 -> 3 -> 2 -> 1 -> 3/6 -> 1/6

Critically fails on a natural 2, releasing one of the faction's recipes in the PF hex.


Enhanced Spread
Base Cost: 5 RP
Uses: 1 PF

Succeeds on a 10+, each success unlocks the next tier on the selected track (factions start with 0)

Bonus Track: 0 -> +1 -> +2 -> +3
Penalty Track: 0 -> -1 -> -2 -> -3


Enhanced Strength
Base Cost: 5 RP
Uses: 1 PF

Succeeds on a 10+, each success unlocks the next tier on the selected track (factions start with 0)

Bonus Track: 0 -> +1 -> +2 -> +3
Penalty Track: 0 -> -1 -> -2 -> -3


Tier 3: Advanced Projects
General Prerequisite: A faction cannot complete more Tier 3 projects than it has completed Tier 2 projects (excluding the 'manufacture BW token' project, which does not contribute to this limit).


Develop Rule
Base Cost: 10 RP
Uses: 1 PF

Succeeds on a 11+, each success unlocks a rule of choice. Some rules have prerequisites, noted in parenthesis. Critically fails on a natural 2, releasing a BW agent in the PF's hex.

Rules
Reroll first result of "1-2"
Reroll first result of "3-4"
Reroll first result of "5-6"
Reroll until a new result is obtained (prereq: any "Reroll first result")
Spread every other turn
Spread every three turns (prereq: "Spread every other turn")
Do not attack biosphere
Do not attack infrastructure
Do not attack VIPs (prereq: "do not attack biosphere")
Roll of "1" always indicates no effect


Develop Feature
Base Cost: 10 RP
Uses: 1 PF

Unlocks special features that may be added to recipes. Prerequisites are listed in parenthesis. Critically fails on a 2, releasing the agent in PF hex.

Cure/2-4: Developer has a 'silver bullet' cure that instantly removes the BW agent from any hex on a 5+ on 2d6
Cure/2-3 (prereq: Cure/2-4): As Cure/2-4, but succeeds on a 4+
Cure/2 (prereq: Cure/2-3): As Cure/2-4, but succeeds on a 3+
Mutation I: +1 penalty to Develop Cure projects
Mutation II (prereq: Mutation I): +2 penalty to Develop Cure projects
Mutation III (prereq: Mutation II): +3 penalty to Develop Cure projects
Long Incubation: Does not appear on map until two turns after it is deployed.
Delayed Symptoms (prereq: Long Incubation): As Long Incubation, except Spread rolls are made starting the turn the agent is deployed. When it appears, it appears in all hexes it has spread to.
Very Deadly: Receives a bonus to Assassinate and Attack Special Forces Team rolls as if it was a CW # token deployed by a special operations team.
Rapid Spread: Each infected hex rerolls its first failed spread check.
Horrific Symptoms: Regardless of roll, always terrorizes the affected hex as if a 3-4 was rolled. If a 3-4 is actually rolled, double the terror time.
Rapid Onset I: Attacks twice each turn
Rapid Onset II (prereq: Rapid Onset I): Attacks three times per turn
Rapid Onset III (prereq: Rapid Onset II): Attacks four times per turn