cialis
; ?> allergic-dextral ; ?>

Author Topic: Rules Discussion / Suggestions  (Read 19791 times)

Fatebringer

  • Guest
Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« on: April 18, 2012, 07:02:07 PM »
I was thinking about the battlefield salvage and the Enemy Designs you come across. Everyone is always envious of neighbors big and shiny toys.

What about doing reverse engineering where you have to give up 5 FP of Salvage or Raids gained from your target faction, from one or more fights, to try and get something usable? Set the diff to 12, and use the standard multiplier for bonuses.

5 = 12
5 + 5 = 12 - 1 = 11
5 + 10 = 12 - 2 = 10
5 + 20 = 12 - 3 = 9

Example.

Leto gains 3 FP of salvage from battle on Geidi Prime, they decide there's some decent stuff here and want to get some functional parts to fix the machines they have so they successfully raid Ix and come away with another 2 FP in parts. They give all 5 points to their developers and fund their research.

To make sure they get a decent chance at something for their money they throw another 20 points at it for a +3 bonus reducing the 12+ to a 9+, Leto rolls a 10 - Success!

New Design from Salvage must come from the RAT of the units faced.
New Design from Raids are randomed

You should get the jist of this from what I've put up :P I leave the rest to your imagination.

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2012, 08:18:03 PM »
Normally I'd be all for some back and forth on this topic, however it's not really compatible with the soon-to-be-unveiled rules I'm working on at the moment for R&D.

Basically, PFs will be generating RP(Research Points) to research new technologies. Each technology tree will have at least 6 levels(Tiers), each Tier with a set # of RP to complete it's research. PFs will be much more tightly controlled than previously, as will all hex improvements(more on that later). Research will cost RP(resource points) to activate the PF's research abilities, and just so we all know ahead of time: it will be expensive. Research is not going to be easy, especially the higher Tiers, but the payoffs do get quite large in some cases.

The full rules will be available as soon as I get them finalized, which should be soon. I'm finishing a draft of the tech trees themselves, and I'll be asking for Dave B's input. If he and I agree they are ready, they'll be posted, hopefully by the beginning of next week so you can peruse them at your leisure.

I'll expand more later, kinda in the zone right now, so...thank you for waiting patiently :) I'm sure people are looking forward to more rules reveals :)
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

GreyJaeger

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2012, 08:03:08 AM »
I looked through the rules as it is, and I did not see anything about what constitutes knowledge "in-game" and "out-of-game". Ie, the information presented in combat threads,Inner Sphere/Clan Chatterweb news reports, and Faction threads. Also, with this delineation in black and white, everyone is starting off on the same footing.

Personally, News Threads are common knowledge for everyone. [RP] and [RP/MM] threads are common knowledge for involved factions. IC Faction threads are not. Negotiations between factions should be done in Turn#[RP] threads.

Players using information form IC Faction Threads or [RP] threads their factions are not involved in get Infrastructure blewed up.

I say this because I have seen far too much "behind the scenes", ie PM "negotiations" that never manifest themselves IC in any way, shape, or form save combat threads. IMPO, this smacks of meta-gaming. I know not everyone sees it that way, and I am not accusing anyone of cheating. It is just my personal belief.

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2012, 08:43:31 AM »
If you'd like, I can make a new post to the rules detailing exactly which threads are and are not in-game knowledge, aswell as what constitutes valid roleplay.
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

GreyJaeger

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2012, 08:58:20 AM »
Yes, please do so. Thanks.

Ian Sharpe

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2012, 05:10:30 PM »
What do you mean no WarShip militia?!! :P

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2012, 07:58:01 PM »
Oh thats right, I forgot. Everyone gets a Warship militia of atleast 3 cruisers, 2 destroy-[Redacted by 'ComStar'].

-There are no warships. YOU SAW NOTHING!!!
Have a plesant visit to Terra...frails.
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

Cannonshop

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2012, 02:13:54 AM »
What are these "Warships" of which you speak?

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2012, 02:57:25 AM »
those shiny things in the sky. They shine the Light of Hope on those confused peoples who have polite disagreements with their benelovent rulers.

I believe you call that 'orbital bombardment'
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

Cannonshop

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2012, 03:41:34 AM »
3039 DK, nobody has 'em.  (and Com* didn't have any in active service, either.)

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2012, 05:40:30 AM »
Thats what Comstar wants you to think ;)


Anyways, enough with the non-existant-warship jokes. I want to let everyone know ahead of time, that in addition to the new research rules(which I've just sent out to Dave B to be looked over before I finalize them), I'm rewritting the comm rules so they'll fit into the R&D rules, aswell as a solid formula for service revenue. They'll both be posted before the game begins, even though the operational part of the Comm rules will not be changing too much. As part of the comm rules rewrite, the Disrupt Communications Special Forces mission will be renamed to Disrupt Communications(Tactical), while another mission will be created called Disrupt Communications(Strategic). The Strategic version is essentially a specialized attack on a nation's communications network, designed to attack the system as a whole, as opposed to just trying to scrambled battlefield comms. The benefit of the new SF mission is that it does more than just destroy the local HPG.

There will also be a new SF mission called Disrupt Research, which allows for disrupting the production of SP, stealing the SP, or outright stealing research. This mission will NOT replace the Industrial Espionage mission, which is for stealing vehicle designs, although Disrupt Research IS required to steal weapon designs.
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

Fatebringer

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2012, 11:54:40 AM »
And here I was thinking we had a solid Comstar and could avoid Comms :P

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2012, 05:20:56 PM »
you arn't actually paying the revenue, it's just being generated per world and per IC. It's not like in 91 when basiclly everyone has gained provider status through various means, so ComStar is just kinda the old cable company that nobody trusts. It's 3039, Scorpion hasn't happened yet. They're still the trusted(except in the FS) neutral party for most stuff, and still the undisputed provider.
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

chaosxtreme

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2012, 05:50:16 PM »
Not to mention.

Dicking with Comstar could get you interdicted your SF hit's someones com array and delays a offensive because of it but that's dead Comstar personnel that your guys just took out when ROM finds out things could get quite real for you.

Not in a warships descending on you kind of way but bad press etc etc.

Fatebringer

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2012, 06:37:37 PM »
I hope Comstar is an active part of this game, as they should be. The reason the DC did so well in the war of 3039 was because of their interference and those Fed Sunners are only distrustful of the FS cause of how many times their hands got slapped in the cookie jar :P

"Give back Sarna right now Hanse!"

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2012, 06:58:33 PM »
ComStar will be playing an active role in the game, have no fear.
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

Crunch

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2012, 09:27:38 PM »
I really hope we can avoid the GM super faction decides everything issues the last game had.

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2012, 09:41:04 PM »
We won't, ComStar wont be forming any Terran Hegemony-esque nation, and it wont be expanding its power anytime soon unless the game goes in a totally boring direction and I feel we need a little 'push' to make the game interesting. But thats up to you all.
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

GreyJaeger

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2012, 11:46:00 PM »
I really hope we can avoid the GM super faction decides everything issues the last game had.

I think I can speak for everyone here... But, NOBODY wants that.

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #19 on: April 28, 2012, 01:49:55 AM »
Research and Development rules have offically been added to the FGC Rulebook. They will be live for Turn 1
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

GreyJaeger

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #20 on: April 28, 2012, 08:47:17 PM »
In the R&D rules, a few of them state that x technology will allow y number of n units to be produced/turn. This implies that only one type of a particular unit can be produced each turn. I.E. The DC, with appropriate production capacity, can build one Battlemech, one armor, one infantry, and one Aerospace unit/turn. Is this correct?

I bring this up because I did not see anything in the Construction rules stating a limit on the number of units a faction can produce.

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #21 on: April 28, 2012, 09:37:56 PM »
I assume you are referencing the 'training' rules. When they say 'train', they mean 'upgrade skill rating', so 'train x# of Battlmech units to Veteran/Elite per turn', because normally the maximum number is 1 unit per turn
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

GreyJaeger

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #22 on: April 28, 2012, 09:47:58 PM »
Ahh.. Yes. That is what it is.

Crunch

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2012, 10:50:07 PM »
I actually had a question about that as well. Is the definition of "Unit" any contiguous unit or a set number of force points or a set number of force points in a contiguous unit. 

Crunch

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2012, 11:54:08 PM »
K since we've been asked to familiarize ourselves with the rules, just a few questions and notes.

1) Under "Permanent Pool" in movement the rules currently say that the permanent pool will next refill on turn 44. I'm assuming that should be turn 12 and is a legacy of the old game.

2) In the event of a failed, but non catastrophic, Pirate Insertion what happens?

3) Is FC62GM the correct the proper GM account?

4) Would Primitive Tech count as Tier 1 for Design tech?

5) Under weapons development do the advances in tier III have to be previously researched? Tiers IV and VI specify previously researched.

6) Does each weapon have to be researched as a separate tree or does each tier unlock the ability listed for any weapons?

7) Do the various Tier IV training crit bonuses stack, and are they specific to unit type?

8) Is the "total FP" referred to in the Battlefield repair rules starting FP for that combat or theoretical max FP for the unit type?

9) Can repair force points be stockpiled?

10) Is there any technological limitation on repairing infrastructure?

11) Do we want to make any provision for primitive tech production facilities?

12) Would a VIP be able to conduct diplomacy during interdict by traveling to the party being negotiated with?

13) I'm assuming that the "Trial" order is unavailable.

14) Are we to assume that Battle Taxis are available to all factions? I was under the impression they weren't introduced until the 3050s.



That's all I have.

It looks great.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2012, 01:11:03 AM by Crunch »

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2012, 05:09:32 AM »
a unit is a single line item formation on your sheet.

1) yes, it should say turn 12

2) you basiclly perform a normal insertion, and the enemy knows you are there

3) for right now, untill Dave B can change it, just send PMs to my private PM box

4) Not sure I follow what you mean

5) No, weapons researched under Tier III do not have to be previously researched

6) what do you mean a seperate tree?

7) They do not stack, and they are specific to the unit type they represent. If multiple units are in a location, which ever unit type is in the majority is the type that would determine if one of those bonuses applied. For example, if I have 7 units, 3 mechs and 4 armor, but my mechs have the +1 to crit? that unit doesn't get it, because the mechs are outnumbered.

8) starting FP for that combat

9) repair force points?

10) no, you can always repair infrastructure if it becomes damaged

11) all MFs currently can only produce Intro tech, with a single exception per faction. Factios will have to undertake research to upgrade their other facilities. Also, all MFs being constructed right now are Intro-Tech, I just need to put down the research line that upgrades new-built MFs to Tech I

12) yes

13) yes

14) Battle Taxis are not available until they are designed in-game, which will either be a random research event, or something else along those lines.
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

Crunch

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2012, 06:00:42 AM »
4) Just wondering if we're bothering with primitive tech at all. It seems like not.

6) Do you research the ability to make prototype weapons, or do you research prototype Small Pulse Lasers.

9) Under the repair rules it says that you can repair a certain amount of damage out of salvage, but the remainder has to be made up by production. Can you bank points to repair units that might be damaged in the future?

Thanks for your patience. Like I said the rules seem slick.

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2012, 06:42:49 AM »
4) oh...i suppose you could if you wanted to, but the rules don't support a 4-tier approach to FP at this time. when we move to equipment tables for ground units(Sorry Fate, but it is the easiest way to implement realistic upkeep and keep things structured), there would be an opportunity to place Primitive equipment in your C category, if you so chose.

5) the latter, you research a specific weapon technology


6) So what happens is that at the end of combat(6 combat rounds or when one side is destroyed/withdraws), the winner keeps salvage. Salvage can be used to repair damage sustained. All Salvage not used for this purpose is converted to RP. So no, you can't stockpile Salvage to be used against latter damage. I was thinking about adding Supply Depots, where you could essentially produce 'Repair FP', which could then be used to repair a unit that stopped there without having to draw against your regular production, but that would only be packaged with sophisticated logistics rules. While I would like to run a game that used a real logistics system, that's not in scope for this game.

Shorter answer- no, all salvage not used for immediate repairs is converted to RP at the end of that turn.
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2012, 06:43:59 AM »
And thank you for the praise for the rules. 95% of what you are reading is work that Dave Baughman has done through revision and trial. The last 5%(the comm rules, research rules, and a smattering of smaller updates) is things I was working on for a different FGC altogether, which I included here.
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

Iron Mongoose

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2012, 08:43:43 AM »
Looking at the rules for Tech paths in economics, where you get a 5-10% bonus on receved money from trades, have we not seen that before?  Is there not a potental for abuse?  Granted, this is a much smaller bonus than last time, and there are more comprehensive trade rules. But since the terriff and transport cost are based on the wholesale price, but the trade bonus bump is based of selling price, there are still methods of making deals very profitable in ways that arn't really reasonable.

Let's imagine that the FS and LC want to make some quick cash.  The FS agrees to sell a few light tanks from a factory very near the bourder, for 100 FP.  They pay about .1 in costs and pocket 104.9 FP.  The Lyrans, eager to recoup the cost of that light tank, sell the FS a case of hooch, for 100 FP.  The pay the terriffs and pocket 104.9 FP.  Not a hell of a lot, but given that its 1/5th the cost of the tier IV perk that does something very similar, its a fairly good value.

Now, I don't want to single the FedCom nations out here.  I had totaly hit on this idea as something my faction could do with our trade partners (think what you will of me for that, but damn it I missed out on the last sweet trade rule that got abused).

Might it not be better to make trade rules that simply lower terriffs or ease transport costs?  That still makes trade more attractive, which I think is the key goal (to make it attractive in this game to do something other than just endlessly build more mechs) but is less open to abuse.

GreyJaeger

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2012, 09:02:51 AM »
Well, rules are only open to abuse as long as there are players who seek to abuse them.

Personally, I think that the first time a players or players attempt something like that...



Upon their entire faction(s).

Iron Mongoose

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2012, 09:20:19 AM »
In a sense, I don't disagree.  But, the problem with abuse is drawing the line.  The senerio I present is clearly outragious, but others might not be, and such a player could easily respond to such acusations of abuse "Its legal under the rules, is it not?"  If we can acomplish the same thing by means that don't invite abuse, should we not do it?  After all, show me which is the player who's a rules abuser, and which is the one who simply wants to gain benifits that are explicitly offered by the rules as writen?

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2012, 10:47:49 AM »
In the scenario you outline, if the FS sold x FP to the Lyrans for y RP, y would be the number subject to the 5% increase. Basiclly, when a faction pays RP to another faction, and you have one of those research paths finished, you get a little more RP than they actually gave you. But of course, if it becomes a problem, I'll simply remove the Economics path entirely, and everyone will lose out on that whole line of research and it's benefits. So I suggest nobody tests the GM's patience on the matter. :)

The 'but it's allowable within the rules' defense has some merit, but abuse is abuse, even if you believe yourself to be justified. I expect people to respect both the letter and spirit of the rules Dave and now I have created. If I see repeated complaints about loopholes and such, the first step is to attempt to close the rules loophole. If I find myself constantly fighting against players who continually try and find the loopholes in research, I'll start shutting down specific avenues of research, and if really gets bad, I'll just kill research entirely. I don't have a lot of patience with that sort of thing, so as before, I suggest people don't make a hobby of finding loopholes, which I am sure are there.
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

Iron Mongoose

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2012, 12:23:44 PM »
Given that I did even offer a solution here, I don't see why there's so much resistance.  I'm trying to close what I see as a potental trouble spot, not exploit it.  If I were, I would have darn well kept quiet about it.

Again, the key problem is assuming that all players have the same set of ideas about what is 'fair play' and what is 'abuse.'  You Deamonknight should well know that differing oppinions of the game asthetic exist amoung players.  Using the rules at hand as an example, is it reasonable for a faction to create a big giant manufacturing hub, with all its factories within four hexes of a centeral factory on a multi FP world?  On the one hand, the rules strongly encourage it, by alowing such factors to pool their production.  On the other, it flys in the face of the game's traditional asthetic, where factories are inveriably spaced far appart.  Is it abuse, or it is just doing what the rules outright encourage you to do?

If the intent of trade rules is to make trade profitable, wouldn't two (or more) faction doing profitable trade deals simply be following the explicit intent of the rules?  If it were just one FP or a fractional FP, would that be ok?  Where's the line?

The idea that players may differ in oppinon about such things, and do so in genuinely good faith, shouldn't be casualy ignored.  Its not my intention to come back to the game and imediatly cause trouble, so I hope no one gets that idea.  But, it should be remembered that the reason that I'm comming back is that I left over precicely such a difrence of oppinion about what was fair and reasonable and what was abuse (I don't intend to draw any conclusions about that here, other than simply to state the very apperant truth that difrent people had difrent feelings about it). 

As your DK yourself freely admit, there are likely to be other little things in the rules that can be used in ways other than perhaps innitaly intended.  If abuse really "is abuse, even if you believe yourself to be justified," then would it not make sense in places where we can see the potental for it, to clarify where the line is, and to remove any justification?  That we acknolage the idea that I player might see themself as being in the right and yet still be in the wrong means we should take steps to make it evidant what is what, and not force players who may be new or not know the GMs well to try and guess at what spirit they had indended.

Maybe I'm just making trouble.  Probably so.  But, wouldn't it be best to make it, and to iron out what's what, and what spirit we intend this game to go foward in, before its underway and each faction has its chance to diverge in its understanding of the rules and of the philosophies that we hope to embody.

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2012, 12:44:11 PM »
Im not saying anything against you IM. I'm saying in general. I freely admit that there will be situations where theres loopholes. Hopefully I close them before they cause any trouble once we see them crop up.

In your manufacturing example, no, I don't see a problem with that. The downside to that scenario, is that all of your manufacturing is bunched together, making it easy for an enemy to cripple your ability to make new military forces. I'd hope the players would take full advantage of that little strategic oversight. But I wouldn't call it abuse. When I said that bit about the 'justified' part, I don't mean someone is automaticlly wrong every time. It depends on circumstance. In the case you outline originally, I'm not sure I follow what your point was. If the Lyrans are buying FP, it's upto the Fedsuns to determine how much money the Lyrans need to pay. Once they agree on a price, and it's paid, the FS would recieve a 5% bonus to the RP they get from the Lyrans, thanks to their tech bonus.

If players want to sit there and swap RP back and forth to generate huge bonus...that would be abusing the system. Obviously. Because they arn't trading anything, they're just generating profits. Perhaps it would be best to establish a player-controlled 'standard price', and anything thats widely outlandish, by the consensus of the player base, is what needs to be worried about. I don't know, I'm just throwing an idea out.
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

Iron Mongoose

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2012, 01:03:57 PM »
Well, let's talk about the rule in question, rather than anything else.

I think its fair to say that the system is designed to encourage trade, and to give traders to reserch that advance a competitive edge.  So, if you've gotten to the point where you get 10% back (much costlier reserch, but easier math) you can sell at cost and cover your over head, or sell at what your buyer thinks is your cost (including terriffs) and make a proffit, or what ever.

The problem is, it is based on enhancing revenue.  In effect, it makes 'free' money appear.  Where does the extra 5-10% come from?  Naturaly, its based on exchange rates and maket demand and other things, IC, but game mechanicaly its a bit funny.  And anything that's a bit funny attracts people that, let's be honest, are like me (again, read into that what you will, and weigh that against the past decade I've been in this game). 

Would a simpler mechanism not be: reduce costs?  That is to say, as you reserch, your terriffs go down (streamlined bourder crossings, more efficant systems, knowing who to bribe and how much, etc) or transport costs go down (more efficant transport hubs, better invintory managment, less waste, etc).  So at even at the maximum point, you don't make any 'free' bonus money by trading, you just don't have to spend any of your own money to do it either. 

If we apply a bonus to transport costs, this actualy can have a domestic effect that goes back to that factory thing we discussed earlier, too, making factory spacing an even more nuanced proposition.  Though that is not essental for the fix to function, and could be left out if it was felt to be imballancing.

But, since you can't increese proffit, just reduce cost (and never below 0) I would offer that such a system achives the same thing (incentives to trade, and advantages in trade to the possessers) with fewer oppertunities for abuse; there is now no possible way that nations can colude to make magic free money.

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2012, 01:15:46 PM »
tell me what you think about this rewrite(had to increase the tarrifs for the research to actually be a useful proposition):

Any time a faction attempts to export production capacity, some money is lost due to tariffs and export duties. Each point of production capacity exported costs the exporting faction .25 RP. The actual cost of the deal is totally up to the players to decide, but this tariff is unavoidable.

Tier I – Economic Theory (15 SP): Reduce international trade tariffs by 10%(round up)
Tier III – Intermediate Economics (50 SP): Reduce international trade tariffs by 25%(round up)
Tier V – Advanced Economics (100 SP): Reduce international trade tarrifs by 50%(round up)
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

Hugin

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2012, 01:25:23 PM »
I liiike

Crunch

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2012, 04:48:08 PM »
I like that much better.

Iron Mongoose

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2012, 01:14:50 AM »
While I think I do like it, to clairify, is the .25 terriff reduced by that percentage, or is the whole price reduced.  That is to say, at tier one is your savings .1 RP, or .025 RP?  Its definatly exactly what I had had in mind, however, in principle.

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2012, 02:01:44 AM »
I think reducing the total price will make our lives easier, atleast in my opinion.
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

DisGruntled

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #41 on: May 28, 2012, 07:56:05 PM »
Quote
Prestigious Facilities
Cost to Purchase:    72
Construction Time:    3 turns
Activation Costs: Tier I - 4.5 RP/turn, Tier II - 9 RP/turn, Tier III - 13.5 RP/turn

Prestigous Facilities contribute to a faction's research, as well as serve as training grounds for the elite soldiers that make up Special Forces teams. There can be no more than 3 PFs in a hex, with each PF representing a level of sophistication, or a 'Tier'.

A faction can have any number of Tier I prestigious facilities.
For every Tier II prestigious facility, a nation must have two Tier I prestigious facilities.
For every Tier III prestigious facilty, a nation must have three Tier II prestigious facilities.
Does it really cost the same 72 RPs to construct  T1 PF, T2 PF, and a T3 PF?

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2012, 08:06:10 PM »
Yes

The additonal cost to the higher tiers, is the requirement to build more of the lower stuff. So the total investment required to build one Tier II PF is: 72x2(for the hex holding the tier II), and 72 in 2 other hexes that need to hold Tier Is, bringing our total to to 288 RP. Obviously someone might say: doesn't it just make sense to build a hole lot of Tier Is everywhere? Sure, you can, but getting to Tier IIIs is the economy of scale: eventually that savings in paying half the normal rate of RP/SP will pay off, if the game goes long enough(i assume everyone would like to see that happen).
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2012, 08:44:15 PM »
Also, it goes without saying that the more widespread your research base is, the easier it is for hostile factions to launch Disrupt Research missions against you. Because the blanket 'Counterintelligence Operations' mission doesn't apply against SF mission(the reason the Disrupt Research mission was made into an SF mission btw), the only counter to the mission is to physiclly station your own SF teams on your PFs, and have them running Protect Hex Element missions. Much easier to defend with a handful of upgraded Tier III and Tier II places, and having the extra 4 hexes with Tier Is for the same research production.
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

DisGruntled

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2012, 09:15:27 PM »
So lets say that Faction Fuzzy Wombat has 3 Tier 1 PFs.

If they wanted to build a Tier 2 PF which option would be correct?
A)Spend 72 RP over 3 turns to build a brand new Tier 2 PF.
B)Spend 72 RP over the 3 turns to upgrade an existing Tier 1 PF into the new Tier 2 PF (ie  you swap out an existing Tier 1 PF for the new Tier 2)

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #45 on: May 28, 2012, 09:40:10 PM »
Well, option 2, although as far as the game mechanics are concerned, 'swapping out' simply means turning 'PF' on the map into '2PF', and putting '2' in the PF column for that hex. Because now every hex is capped at having '3 PFs', with each PF in a hex representing a single Tier.

Make more sense?
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

DisGruntled

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #46 on: May 28, 2012, 10:03:39 PM »
If you had 3 PFs in a hex wouldn't it already be a Tier 3?

So I am correct that when you pay the RP you're really just adding a number to the PF in the hex (0->1, 1->2, 2->3) as long as you're following all the other restrictions.

Thanks again for the prompt answers,
-Dis


Arkansas Warrior

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2012, 08:17:37 PM »
In regards to the raid table:

Raid Defense Force Table
2 70% of Attacker
3 75% of Attacker
4 80% of Attacker
5 90% of Attacker
6 100% of Attacker
7 100% of Attacker
8 100% of Attacker
9 110% of Attacker
10 120% of Attacker
11 135% of Attacker
12 150% of Attacker


What if the defender doesn't have that much force in the hex?  An example:

The 1892nd St.Ives Ducal Dragoon Guards (10 FP, E/R) Raid Sian (hex 2633).  Which is currently defended only by the 2.13th Sian Retired Pensioners (Free Militia 1.0 FP G/Q).  The Defender rolls a 12.  Do they suddenly have 15 FP of troops?  Or is the defender's roll constrained by something like "not exceeding maximum FP of defending forces on-planet at the time"?




Another question: Should I assume that all newly-created forces begin as green?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 08:20:26 PM by Arkansas Warrior »

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2012, 10:33:36 PM »
newly created forces are Regular.

The Raid Defense Table only tells you the maximum ammount of force you MAY send against a raider. If you have less, then you have less.
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

Arkansas Warrior

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2012, 10:39:03 PM »
Okay, thanks.  How do forces end up green then?  Just choosing to create them inexperienced for some odd reason?

Dave Baughman

  • Dux Bellorum
  • Senior Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 4810
  • Reputation: 4938
  • Four Seals Remain
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #50 on: July 24, 2012, 12:38:30 AM »
Okay, thanks.  How do forces end up green then?  Just choosing to create them inexperienced for some odd reason?

Units can be built as green to save money... IIRC a badly-damaged unit may also drop a skill rank when repaired. If they were regular before they got mauled, they may become green when all the replacements pour in.
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Apollyon, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Fatebringer

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #51 on: July 24, 2012, 08:39:17 AM »
As Dave said, It comes down to Green forces are cheaper. If you have invested heavily in the training paths of the development tree, you can afford to build green units and train them up :) This works well for smaller realms without much money.

On the other end, it could still be an RP thing.


Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #52 on: July 25, 2012, 02:46:11 PM »
Guys I wanted to clear something up real quick that came up in a private discussion.


Any tech, be it equipment or weapons, that can be found in ANY rulebook(Maximum Tech, XTRO, ect) is availible for research in this game. So if people want to go looking for stuff like the Blazer Cannon, or Hypervelocity Autocannons and such weapons. On the subject of Autocannons: each of the various Autocannon types is a seperate research path. So you would need to run seperate weapons research for the Ultra Autocannon, the Rotary Autocannon, the Light Autocannon and the Hypervelocity Autocannons. As for AC munitions...I think we can all agree that having to devlop each special AC munition type individually would be a nightmare for anyone whose interested in the systems. So I will say that anytime you research any Autocannon type, you can also choose a special munition type at the same time(meaning you basiclly get 4 'free' special munitions if you research all the AC types). I'll also allow that researching a special munition type gives you access to a 2nd munition type, a sort of research bleed over.

The same can be said for missile tech. Enhanced and Extended LRMs, MMLs, Thunderbolt and MRMs are all valid subjects for research projects. Sadly, Streak-LRMs are a clan weapon system, and not open for research(much as I love those things). Every time you research one, you get a 'free' special ammunition type(you may also choose to research and/or receive hard-point mounted munitions, such as Anti-Ship Missiles, Air-to-Air Arrow Missiles, ect...).
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

Arkansas Warrior

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #53 on: July 25, 2012, 03:00:39 PM »
IIRC in cannon the various calibers were developed separately.  Am I reading you right that if you develop LBX ACs you get the LBX2 through LBX20 at once, you don't need to develop each separately?  Would that also apply to, say, ER and pulse lasers?

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #54 on: July 25, 2012, 03:35:58 PM »
I hadn't thought about that actually. But forcing everyone to research each individual size of each type of weapon is going to take forever. That would mean, to research all possible lasers, would require 6 runs of the Tier III weapons development path(Small/Medium/Large ER lasers, and Small/Medium/Large Pulse lasers). To fully research all the various Autocannons...that would take forever. And I don't think everyone wants to spend all their time just researching weapons, when there are plenty of other research options. Research takes long enough as it is.

So to answer your question, no, we arn't going to do that. You research the old SL-era weapon systems, you get all the sizes.

Now, for the future based systems, I think those should be more complicated. So when yous start running Tier V of the weapons development path(for things like MMLs, MRMs, Enhanced and Extended LRMs), you start at the bottom and work your way up in size.
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

Hugin

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #55 on: July 25, 2012, 04:41:33 PM »
I hadn't thought about that actually. But forcing everyone to research each individual size of each type of weapon is going to take forever. That would mean, to research all possible lasers, would require 6 runs of the Tier III weapons development path(Small/Medium/Large ER lasers, and Small/Medium/Large Pulse lasers). To fully research all the various Autocannons...that would take forever. And I don't think everyone wants to spend all their time just researching weapons, when there are plenty of other research options. Research takes long enough as it is.

So to answer your question, no, we arn't going to do that. You research the old SL-era weapon systems, you get all the sizes.

Now, for the future based systems, I think those should be more complicated. So when yous start running Tier V of the weapons development path(for things like MMLs, MRMs, Enhanced and Extended LRMs), you start at the bottom and work your way up in size.



THAT is a very very VERY important and IMHO good ruling!!!

thanks for the clarification

Iron Mongoose

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #56 on: July 26, 2012, 01:13:05 AM »
You wouldn't do six runs of tier III, you'd do one of tier III, and several of tier V, since the SL only had one size in each type of AC.

If you want to merror canon, you should probaly set the ER LL and PPC, the Ultra 5 and LB10 as recovered SL tech, and have it at the lower price, and then set all the rest from each set as a single set.  So, you pay SL prices for the ER LL, but with that in hand you can pay a single price at Tier V and get both the ER ML and ER SL.

An alternitive would be to have a tier IIIa, and make it a fairly token cost to do the same thing, reasoning that devloping the 'new' but basicly understood ER ML from the ER SL should be easier than devloping say...plasma rifles from nothing (even in canon, they were devloped from Clan plasma cannons).  But it still took the IS a decade to do the ERs and Ultras and LBs, and its often mentioned that it took access to Clan versions to do it, so it must not be a slam dunk.

Though, on the topic of Clan tech, you might put Tiers VII and VIII in for that (or even more) at outragious costs, so that people who really want to try and push it have something to shoot for.

Terminax

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #57 on: July 26, 2012, 04:30:40 AM »
What about things like retrotech/primatives and weapons that didn't exactly go extinct but didn't go anywhere until lost tech was rediscovered like the Binary Laser Canon aka the mech blazer?

Mekorig

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #58 on: July 26, 2012, 02:02:21 PM »
To clear some doubts after reading the research rules:

 I want to produce the Locust LCT-3M, that have Anti-Missiles System, Ferro-Fibrous, CASE and Endo-Steel as Tier I techs. So i have to research Tier IIb* - Develop Prototype Equipment 4 times (for each AMS, FFA, CASE and ES), Tier V* - Advanced Prototype to add the Locust to my House list, and Tier I – Technological Revolution to upgrade a intro-tech factory to produce the mech?

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #59 on: July 26, 2012, 03:09:29 PM »
correct
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

Mekorig

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2012, 03:11:05 PM »
 Ouch. It will take some time until we see a SL-tech mech walking around.

Hugin

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #61 on: July 27, 2012, 12:07:32 AM »
Ouch. It will take some time until we see a SL-tech mech walking around.

 8)

Fatebringer

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #62 on: July 31, 2012, 02:01:37 PM »
that does seem to be the way of things :P

Mekorig

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #63 on: July 31, 2012, 05:25:32 PM »
And what about researching for a new model (post-3050) using intro-tech?

Fatebringer

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #64 on: July 31, 2012, 05:52:07 PM »
I think you need to get the tech advancements first, then you can push for the designs.

Mekorig

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #65 on: July 31, 2012, 08:22:30 PM »
I think you need to get the tech advancements first, then you can push for the designs.

 I know, i am talking about non-3039 intro tech models, like the Grasshopper -5N.

Arkansas Warrior

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #66 on: July 31, 2012, 08:25:49 PM »
We could resurrect the Mackie!  (okay, not the spiffy 9H from TRO3075, but there's gotta be a decent L1 version)

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #67 on: July 31, 2012, 08:50:27 PM »
technically those would fall under the aegis of 'future faction designs'
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

Arkansas Warrior

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #68 on: July 31, 2012, 08:56:03 PM »
Not Star League Designs?  Even if they were deployed in that era?  (I'm thinking specifically of the resurrected designs from '75, like the Hammerhands, Firebee, Icarus, Gladiator, Ymir, etc that oftentimes date to the Reunification war)

DisGruntled

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #69 on: July 31, 2012, 10:29:50 PM »

Er the Grasshopper 5N is on the RATs in War of 3039.  It should be in limited use already by the DCMS, FS, and  LC.

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #70 on: July 31, 2012, 11:51:55 PM »
...if it was deployed in the SL era, then obviously it would be an SL era mech...i guess I'm confused as to why you'd ask the question.
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

Arkansas Warrior

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #71 on: August 01, 2012, 01:29:58 AM »
Eh, you never know.  If, say, the FedSuns gets a Star League design via the memory core or tech tree, but doesn't want to wait to develop all the relevant tech and upgrade their factories, they might pick the HMH-3D Hammerhands.  I just want to be sure it's possible, so that I know I have the option if it ever comes up.

Mekorig

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #72 on: August 01, 2012, 07:48:36 AM »

Er the Grasshopper 5N is on the RATs in War of 3039.  It should be in limited use already by the DCMS, FS, and  LC.

 I was under the impression that the -5N was a post-50 variant.

Dave Baughman

  • Dux Bellorum
  • Senior Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 4810
  • Reputation: 4938
  • Four Seals Remain
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #73 on: August 02, 2012, 12:25:47 AM »

Er the Grasshopper 5N is on the RATs in War of 3039.  It should be in limited use already by the DCMS, FS, and  LC.

 I was under the impression that the -5N was a post-50 variant.

IIRC it was introduced in a 3060s era product, but was then back-written into earlier eras.
And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Apollyon, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

Mekorig

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #74 on: August 02, 2012, 09:23:36 AM »
 The thing is, how can i get a new intro tech (another faction model or a new intro tech unit) unit into my faction armory?

Fatebringer

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #75 on: August 02, 2012, 02:46:24 PM »
((Shrug)) Trades?

Bergie

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #76 on: August 02, 2012, 05:47:39 PM »
I cannot seem to find FP rules for fighters. . .

Arkansas Warrior

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #77 on: August 02, 2012, 05:55:27 PM »
There's one line near the top of the post that discusses BV for ground units:

One Force Point (FP) of aerospace forces is approximately equivalent to 15,000 BV points.



Note that that includes fighters, small craft, DropShips, and, one day, WarShips.

Mekorig

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #78 on: August 02, 2012, 05:56:24 PM »
Guys, Infantry can be raised in any control world, or in a planet with a MF?

Arkansas Warrior

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #79 on: August 02, 2012, 06:15:50 PM »
You could certainly fluff them as being from anywhere, but you're limited to2 FP per MF per turn in quantity, so you can't just pop and extra FP of infantry up on Randomworld III after using all your MF capacity on tanks and battlemechs.  At least, that's my reading.

Daemonknight

  • Imperium Magistratus
  • High Lord Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 102179
  • Reputation: 3462
    • View Profile
    • Email
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #80 on: August 02, 2012, 08:54:30 PM »
FP of any kind, be it infantry, battlemechs, fighters, or one day WarShips, MUST be built using either MFs or SYs(depending on unit type). As he said, you are free to roleplay the unit has having been raised on World X, but they have to actually be built and initially appear on a world containing sufficent production capacity to build them.
"My only regret is that I will not be alive in .03 seconds. I would have liked to watch the enemy attempt to vent an omnidirectional thermonuclear blast enveloping their outpost."
-Last thoughts of Maldon, Type XXX Bolo, 3rd Battalion, Dinochrome Brigade

Iron Mongoose

  • Guest
Re: Rules Discussion / Suggestions
« Reply #81 on: August 03, 2012, 04:00:40 PM »
The FP of foot infantry with basic, localy avalable weapons is so low that it would take scores of regements to rate more than the 1FP for millita, so the need for a mech factory basicly represents the need for infantry to have more than just sturdy boots.  They need medium and heavy weapons, APCs, jeeps, artilery, and all sorts of other fun stuff that takes real work to put together.

An older set of rules set the FP of basic foot infantry as zero (0) so that you probably could set your infantry as just being farmers with what rifles and shotguns they had on hand anyway, and get exactly what you pay for, but I don't know that that still holds true.  For properly armed infantry with heavy weapons that can genuinely fight against mechs, that is to say that rates some number of FP, you need something more.